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pointerman
Member posted 10-21-2002 04:18 PM
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I recieved an e-mail from a gentleman who resides in Turkey. And
he asked me some questions concerning Split nosed Pointers. Has
anyone ever heard of this breed? He gave me a link to a web-page
about them and I found it quite interesting any info an this breed
would be appreciated.
http://uk.geocities.com/catalburun/english.html
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Jim Beasley
Lost River Kennels
Home of Fine English Pointers
Peter Smith
Member posted 10-21-2002 04:27 PM
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I don't know anything about the breed but that is one strange looking
dog. I don't know that my buddies could quit laughing long enough
to hunt if I showed up with a dog that looked like that.
As for their ability, it sounds as if they aren't expected to point
but just slow down when they encounter game. Sounds more like a
flusher to me.
john antunes
Member posted 10-24-2002 12:11 PM
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Hello All, I just read your post about the split nosed Pointer.
I to received an email concerning this breed. This breed is probably
the closest breed still exsisting that goes directely back to the
very first Pointing dog of the past from the Iberian peninsula.
This reapering formation of the nose still shows up every now and
then in some of the lesser exploited pointing breeds from the continent.
This breed shows up as one of the very first spanish pointers in
history as well. As to the style with which it hunts I believe it
is methodical and slows down to pin down running partrige or Perdiz.
but does point indeed. this breed should be considered aversetile
breed like the english pointer of old untill fanciers wanted to
use them only to point and other dogs to retrieve. thankfully some
breeders still breed English pointers to do both. The general thoughts
on Us Americans when it comes to dogs is that we want specialists
rather than consumate profesionals as for me I'm still undecided
as to what I want I am very close but I know that as a foot hunter
I want a dog that can earn his/her keep if I have to retrieve the
bird I shot then Why not flush it as well. I understand that in
sertain terrain a specialist is great but how manny regular everyday
hunters can afford to keep a specialist for what he decides to hunt
that day? May all your points be solid and sure. john antunes
dave gowdey
Member posted 10-26-2002 10:05 PM
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One interesting sidelight to this post is that for many years there
was a strong core of belief among trainers and experienced pointer
folks down South that a split (or double barreled)nose was a more
sensitive nose, and that a pointer that had a split nose would be
a better bird dog. Of course, the dog's noses were rarely split
to the point that appears in the picture shown - but it is not uncommon
to find more moderately split or dimpled noses in all of the breeds
that descend from the spanish pointer. Basically that would include
almost every pointing breed.
I will say that I don't believe there is any scientific evidence
to back up the belief that a split nose is more sensitive - but
the two GSPs I've had that had such noses were the best bird finding
dogs I've ever hunted over. Those old time trainers may have been
on to something.
john antunes
Member posted 10-27-2002 07:20 PM
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Hello! Mr Gowdey, that is nice to hear I would love to see some
pictures of these short hairs you have. The dog that you call a
spanish pointer is called a navaro. You should know that the dog
that was used to create the GSP was a spanish pointer but Not the
one that we are speaking of. there are two types of Pointers in
Spain one is a large houdish looking dog with a flat top line from
Muzel to top of head. The collor is also allmost exactely like the
old style GSP. On the other hand the NOW called Portuguese pointer
is what has been preserved from the acient breed that everyone calls
the spanish pointer wich was actualy prevelant in the catlunha area
of spain as well as parts of France and Northern portugal. Manny
croos breeding and manipulating of diffirent breeds has now lead
us to all of these diffirent breeds. manny times this was done to
make the dogs better for the particular climate or terrain in which
they were being used. But in all of this ther were people who breed
these breeds true and didn't follow fads. The split nose also apears
in Portugal france turkey and Northern Italy and has for eons manny
of these rarities still apear from time to time But they are culled
when they apear in the other breeds. I have heard that there was
a duke in europe at that time that kept over 100 pointing dogs and
loved hunting. Wether the Portuguese pointer of today is or is not
the ancestorof the EP I can't argue. But in all the diffirent TRUTHS
i have heard the one thing that seems to come out is that the PP
is the closest preservation that we have today of the dog that is
credited with the propagation of the EP. There is a dr in Italy
that is writting a book on the origen of the modern pointing dogs
of today that has much information on this subject. But he is keeping
it quite and I must abide by hi wishes untill he publishes his book
I have ask3ed for him to please publish in english. He is curentely
shooting wookcock in Ireland for the season but I will try to get
him to visit this board when he returns from the country. good hunting
john
gunner
Member posted 10-28-2002 09:52 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, Nash Buckingham wrote fondly of gunning over
a split nosed pointer. I'll have to review his various titles which
he gave such ink.
Barna Lukacs
Member posted 10-31-2002 08:05 PM
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Mr. Antunes
Your analysis of the ancient Spanish pointer origin is very intresting.
Just as a suggestion, you may want to look at the people of the
region and their history.
The area of northern Spain is known as the Basque region. The Basque
people are the remnants of the 1-st century invaders known as the
Allans. The Allans invaded Europe from central Asia along with many
other nomadic peoples of that period. (Huns, Avars,...) They brought
with them their dogs for hunting (primarily large animals but some
birds with falcons).
In central Asia they most likely were forced out by other nomadic
tribes that were stronger than them. The Turks were one of the strongest
people of the reagon at that time. Also there were many alliences
between peoples for protection and survival. The weapons and the
hunting practices were simillar between the central Asian peoples
this would have included their dogs. This is why you will find the
resemblence of the pointer in Spain and Turkey.
As for the northern Italian region, this was one of the major retreating
routes of the nomdic invaders, some tribes probably seteled in the
isolated areas and blended in to the population along with their
dogs.
think obout it,
Barna
john antunes
Member posted 11-01-2002 09:24 AM
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Hello! Barna I don't disagree with you . But I was allwys led to
believe that the Basque region of Northern Spain was yes in Northern
spain but more along the french side of the map. Due to the fact
that Northern Spain extends over the top of the Peninsula and consequentely
over the top of Portugal to the Atlantic ocean. Would you be telling
me that Due to the fact that at that time Portugal And spain were
one Country that Portugal also is Part of the Basque people ? I'm
Just trying to better understand while thinking about it. I think
everyone agrees that pointers come from a time when the IBERIAN
PENINSULA was just a few tribes Like the Visagoths and the Kelts
also as well as the tribes you mentioned. But we are trying to find
out were the lines we have today originated or at least I am. I
don't say that the Portuguese pointer or the Spanish pointer or
any of those breeds don't go back to the dogs of that time. One
can also argue that due to Portugal being one of the major shiping
routes in history that manny breeds may have had influence or been
influenced by the breeds in Portugal. What I say is that the german
short hair was developed in germany much Much later than the breeds
we are talking about. And one only needs to go to the name the breeds
sport today to try and understand their liniage. In the days you
speek of the dogs wear likely allowed to run and also breed without
any supervision from the tribes they aother things to worry about.
We need to look at the availabel history and possibel documentation
rather than coming up with what ifs. But If you can find some paintings
or documentation such as cave drawings or other such type of possibel
proof it would be wonderfull for all of us. the more information
we have the better even if some of us don't like it in my opinion
we need to keep an open mind to all that the world has given us.
Good hunting and thank you I also found what you said interesting.
dave gowdey
Member posted 11-02-2002 01:19 AM
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Mr. Antunes,
The history that I've read of pointing dogs is a bit different.
This history says that pointing dogs in Spain go back to the time
of the crusades. That these were dogs that the Spaniards captured
from the Moors - and that they had common origins with the pointing
dogs used throughout the islamic world (including Turkey). In fact,
legend says that there were two basic types in use in the islamic
world that came to Europe through Spain, a smaller type with long
flowing hair, and a larger, more hound looking type with shorter
hair. The longer haired version is the ancestor of the setters,
and the shorter haired spanish pointer lies behind most of the continental
pointing breeds. This original spanish pointer -the one who is pictured
similar to your portuguese pointer - is at the root of almost all
of the smoothhaired European breeds -with the possible exception
of the Viszla which descended from the turkish version of the dog
that wound up in Spain. Also, the Italians claim that the Spinone
is an ancient breed the evolved separately from the spanish dogs
- but the evidence seems to lead toward a spanish origin.
So the bottom line is that the traditional spanish pointer is at
the back of the EP, GSP, GWP, Pudelpointer,the various French Braques,
etc. All of these breeds resulted at the very beginning from various
crosses with the spanish pointer - usually with local hounds. In
all of these breeds you will find a split nose showing up from time
to time, though rarely as pronounced as the splitnosed pointer shown
in the picture.
Barna Lukacs
Member posted 11-02-2002 01:24 AM
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Hi John,
As far as I know you are correct on the origin of the GSP. They
were developed from the EP and the EP from the ancient Spanish Pointer.
All the information I read seem to indicate this.
My observation was related to the split nose pointer that started
this topic. They are found in Turkey, some remnants in Northern
Italy, Spain and Portugal. The most likely way that these dogs got
there is with the nomads that travaled this route. The rocky. dry
mountenus terain of Spain and Turkey is wery simillar. This may
have ben the reason that the nomads settled there.
The Basque people kept their language and customs for over 1500
years in a reagon that saw many turbulent times. This means that
they kept to them selvs for a long time and did not disolve in to
the larger nationalities around them. Their dogs may also have ben
isolated along with them until some outsider noticed their specialty
and then developed them to fit their needs.
Hunting was a very important survival tool for the nomads and they
would probably kept the dogs that best suported their needs. Animal
husbandry was a very well practiced trade because their existance
depended on the animals they raised and rode. I would think that
this included their dogs also.
As far as historical record such as a painting or writen documentation
I do not have. Just a theory.
I would be intrested in what information your Italian Dr. friend
has.
Another theory is that the early pointers were used for hunting
with falcons. This sport was very popular with the nobility in Europe
before and after the gun was invented. This may have ben the staring
point for the EP.
However the nomadic tribes used falcons as part of their hunting
practices with pointing dogs. Of this I have proof. There are several
Hungarian historical writings including a stone carving of a hunter
with his falcon and Vizsla. This was dated back to the end of the
first millenuim (900 AD)
your thoughts,
Barna
john antunes
Member posted 11-03-2002 07:11 PM
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Hello! barna,
Nice to hear from you again. I don't think that we are disagreeing
here we are just looking at things from a diffirent perpective.
If we go back in history to the nomadic tribes then I would have
to agree with you 100% that more than likely the origen comes from
there dogs. What I have been trying to say and possibely not explaining
myself very well is that the pointer that is found in Portugal today
is probably the closest anscestor to EP or the english setter of
today. Portugal also evolved from nomadic tribes such as the visagoths
and the kelts so I'm certain that these same dogs were prevelent
to them as well since they are credited with the fall of the romman
empire they must have had contact and/or even dealings with the
other nomadic tribes of the region it must have been a colaboration
between all of them.(the fall of the romman empie that is)
My point about the dogs of that time is that breeds were not kept
pure they were moast likely breed the best hunting dog to the best
hunting dog that suited their purpose. they were not so hung up
on whether or not it had long hair or short hair just that it was
very good for the porpuse they wanted to use it for.
Barna if you send me your personal email I will send you a picture
of a dog that is thought to be extinct due to breeders culling them
when they show up in litters ,I believe due to recesive genes.
john antunes
Member posted 11-03-2002 07:46 PM
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Hello! Mr Gowedy,
As to history I'm a bit lacking in that area was not my best subject
in school. But a couple of things that I remember is that the king
of Portugal and the King of spain were brothers. This is what caused
the civil war. Another thing small I grant you is that the imfamous
spanish armada that was blown into the rocks in the English channel
and then defeated by the English was mostely Portuguese ships Due
to Older Brother sending the younger brothers ships first. I can
go on this but it isn't pertnint except to say that history many
times called such ventures spanish when they were a combined venture
such as the Crusades. Another Small Point to consider is that The
Famous or Infamous Templar Nights (the ones responsibel for the
crusades) Stteled in and Built a very large monestery/castel in
a town Called Tomar In PORTUGAL. As to the Spanish Pointer you speek
of there are Two seperate breeds of Spanish Pointers in SpainOne
looks almost identical to the OLD style Short hair and the other
is the Navaro wich has the split Nose that we speek of. One thing
that we must keep in perspective is that in Europe there existed
manny few People who breed exclusively to a breed standard or in
Portugal or any other continental Country. SO it only seems natural
to say that ther was what we would call today indescriminate breeding
between hunters. It still happens today to some extent. I still
here stories about split nosed pointers being born in a litter but
you may only have one show upout of 8 to 13 or more or less and
may not show up every litter. In Portugal when shuch a dog shows
up in a litter it is culled as the breed registry will not register
them. I personaly think that it is a shame. As to the original Spanish
pointer that resembels the Portuguese Pointer There are manny theories
out thereand as to my Italian friend he will state his facts when
his book comes out and you can decide for your self. One thing I
can tell you is that the area of Spain which the Original as you
call it Spanish pointer came from or was developed at that time
is in Northern Portugal today and that is where the Portuguese Pointer
roots come from today. But if you like I will send you some Pictures
of the dogs I speak of from spain that I believe where the foundation
of the GSP and most other German breeds. Just email me your personal
email or adress and I will be glad to do so from The encyclopedia
of dog breeds of the world. But whatever you wind up thinking is
up to you what is important is that you love your breeding and they
love and enjoy your time together.
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